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> Armour Resistances, Need some feedback
Birnical
post Feb 12 2009, 09:55 AM
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QUOTE(Kelvor @ Feb 12 2009, 03:40 PM) *
I agree, you're really grasping at straws here. Why are you trying to find problems with things that are fine, and worse, using a "realistic" reasoning for why it's broken.

Last time I checked, Dransik was a game. Two headed ettins and balrons don't exist in real life unless you're on shrooms, shall we remove them from the game? Magic? Remove. Potions that magically give you more HP? Remove.

A dragon plate gives the most resistance because it's the hardest to make and just as easy to lose / fail. This is how things work in the world of games. Reality has very VERY little weight on game concepts.

Dransik doesn't need drastic change - it needs the rough edges smoothed out. Inconsistencies need to be fixed (Ethereal shield being just as rare as a rune sword but not being as useful etc).

Dransik isn't your little box to test your ideas in, nor is it yours to flip upside down. If you want to do those things:

1) Become a programmer
2) Develop your own online RPG (yes it'll be hard - but it does a good job at filtering out the people with crappy ideas)
3) Implement your ideas


CHANGE IS BAD!!! BOOO!!! BOOO!!! CHANGE IS BAD!!! BOOO!!! BOOO!!!

Hmm, you find it inconsistent that ETH shield has lower armor/mitigation but the idea that John is proposing is just too much of a rational change?
You like some reason, but in the end, it all has to be mystical and a random mathematical algorithm.
Dragon plate is the hardest to make, because it takes the most amount of scales for it is a big item, not because your double layering (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
It already gives more ARMOR, the highest amount of armor in the game because it covers the biggest area of the body.

Modifying the red dragon set in any way is not a drastic change, come on...having it implemented was the drastic change...but modifying a few numbers...do you really think so? if modifying a few numbers on red dragon set is a drastic change, what word can we use to describe it's implementation?

I am almost certain that this is the rough edges that need to be smoothed, LITERALLY.
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Guest_DWC Aldwulf_*
post Feb 12 2009, 10:16 AM
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Good constructive comments lads. If you have a good suggestion & you think this change could make a difference, then please post it.
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JonnyH
post Feb 12 2009, 10:29 AM
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So - just for clarity's sake, even if all of the pieces were to give 15% resistance, equipping them all would not give 75% - it would give 60%. That's how resistance works in this game. Never more than 60%. There might be something to the idea of a small added bonus, if all five pieces were equipped - but this is beyond the scope of inquiry, at this point.

I apologize if it seemed like the only armour that I was looking at was Red Dragon. I'm looking at all armour that gives resistance - and trying to balance the resistances. The Red Dragon was just an example of something to talk about. The actual reason I asked was because of Frost armour - every piece of which gives 12% resistance, which makes sense because they're all made out of the same material. It was on this Frost armour reasoning that I was asking about the Dragon armours. If, however, everyone thinks that Dragon armours should give resistance based on the number of scales used in them, then I will have to change the Frost armour. I'm looking at consistency in the game - so the new players might get an idea of what to expect as they move from set to set. The game doesn't have to have real life consistency, but there should be some kind of internal consistency.

So tell me how you want it. Frost Plate gives more resistance than Frost Helm, or Red Dragon Plate gives same resistance as Red Dragon Helm. There's going to be consistency in the way that these things work.

And for your information - those of you who think that this forum thread has given you occasion for righteous anger about possibilities for the game - I posted this topic so that I could get your feedback, not because I was already decided. I told you what seemed to make some sense to me, and wanted you to tell me what seemed to make some sense to you. I'm not here to promote my own ideas before anyone else's - I'm just looking for valid reasons for things to be the way they are. Sifting through what has been written, there are a few things to put to the community.

1. Should the total resistance given by a set such as the Red Dragon set equal 60%, and no higher - so the resistances of all of the five pieces, added together, equal 60, not 80 (even though they all give only 60 anyways)?

2. Should the Protection on armour pieces such as the Red Dragon Plate, which is higher than the Rune Plate, be lowered - so that the Rune is the most powerful?

3. The Frost set is supposed to be a high end armour - I don't think that lowering the requirement for it to level 30 is entirely reasonable. Few of us think that a level 30 character is at a high level. Let me know if you think otherwise, and why.
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KaaLimaTo
post Feb 12 2009, 10:46 AM
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Rune should be the best - period. Altho some armors that are more rare than rune should be better, example eth shield, anubis helm and WW skin.

I'm really looking forward on buffing rune armors - slightly.

When using the red dragon armor set, maximum possible resistance should be 60%, regardless of the cap.

Red dragon plate armor count should be reduced. It shouldn't give more armor than rune plate.

Reason why frost armour requirement should be dropped is simply because the hunting grounds which requires frosts - are not high end hunting grounds.
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Kelvor
post Feb 12 2009, 11:35 AM
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QUOTE(Birnical @ Feb 12 2009, 09:55 AM) *
CHANGE IS BAD!!! BOOO!!! BOOO!!! CHANGE IS BAD!!! BOOO!!! BOOO!!!

Hmm, you find it inconsistent that ETH shield has lower armor/mitigation but the idea that John is proposing is just too much of a rational change?
You like some reason, but in the end, it all has to be mystical and a random mathematical algorithm.
Dragon plate is the hardest to make, because it takes the most amount of scales for it is a big item, not because your double layering (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
It already gives more ARMOR, the highest amount of armor in the game because it covers the biggest area of the body.

Modifying the red dragon set in any way is not a drastic change, come on...having it implemented was the drastic change...but modifying a few numbers...do you really think so? if modifying a few numbers on red dragon set is a drastic change, what word can we use to describe it's implementation?

I am almost certain that this is the rough edges that need to be smoothed, LITERALLY.


I think you'll discover that he doesn't just want to change one thing, hence my concern.

To the OP - if every piece will give 15% and the overall resistance will not exceed 60%, tell me what the point is of risking a red dragon plate while hunting or even wasting scales to make it to begin with?
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Birnical
post Feb 12 2009, 11:37 AM
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QUOTE(Kelvor @ Feb 12 2009, 07:35 PM) *
QUOTE(Birnical @ Feb 12 2009, 09:55 AM) *
CHANGE IS BAD!!! BOOO!!! BOOO!!! CHANGE IS BAD!!! BOOO!!! BOOO!!!

Hmm, you find it inconsistent that ETH shield has lower armor/mitigation but the idea that John is proposing is just too much of a rational change?
You like some reason, but in the end, it all has to be mystical and a random mathematical algorithm.
Dragon plate is the hardest to make, because it takes the most amount of scales for it is a big item, not because your double layering (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
It already gives more ARMOR, the highest amount of armor in the game because it covers the biggest area of the body.

Modifying the red dragon set in any way is not a drastic change, come on...having it implemented was the drastic change...but modifying a few numbers...do you really think so? if modifying a few numbers on red dragon set is a drastic change, what word can we use to describe it's implementation?

I am almost certain that this is the rough edges that need to be smoothed, LITERALLY.


I think you'll discover that he doesn't just want to change one thing, hence my concern.

To the OP - if every piece will give 15% and the overall resistance will not exceed 60%, tell me what the point is of risking a red dragon plate while hunting or even wasting scales to make it to begin with?

It is pretty difficult to solo Orcus without rd plate... and possibly set bonuses? I think we are on the same page to say that RD plate is for the high level players... You see high level players running around with rune gaunts, and you as well I know that rune gaunts only add a max of 25dmg on your hits...that is not going to break or make a fight...
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JonnyH
post Feb 12 2009, 11:38 AM
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Ok, if we go entirely by number of scales used to make the Dragon armours, then we would end up with the following values (working to 60% and no higher):

Red Dragon Plate: 21%
Red Dragon Shield: 15%
Red Dragon Leggings: 13%
Red Dragon Gauntlets: 7%
Red Dragon Helmet: 4%

I'm not a huge fan of these numbers, so it could be done a little more arbitrarily, giving a base of 5% resistance to each item:

Plate: 17%
Shield: 14%
Leggings: 12%
Gauntlets: 9%
Helmet: 8%

If we made it base 10%, then there isn't much variation between them:

Plate: 14%
Shield: 12%
Leggings: 12%
Gauntlets: 11%
Helmet: 11%

Or consider a base 7%:

Plate: 16%
Shield: 13%
Leggings: 12%
Gauntlets: 10%
Helmet: 9%

These would be the options, on a preliminary glance, for the resistances of Red Dragon armour, if it was based on the number of scales used in the piece. Which would you prefer? Or would you rather that the total equalled something higher than 60%, even though you can only experience 60% total when all is equipped?


I'm not saying that 60% is the max resistance that's "going to be" allowed - I'm saying that currently it's the max resistance that you're getting. If you want that limit raised, that's a totally different matter.
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KaaLimaTo
post Feb 12 2009, 11:40 AM
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5 or 7. Maybe 5 a little more. 60% definetly. More just leads to abuse of brims/vsf/ fire shield. I know that 60% is the cap atm.
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JonnyH
post Feb 12 2009, 12:07 PM
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So if we went with 5 or 7 base, the difference to Frosts would be as follows (currently they're all at 12%):

5 base:
Plate: 17%
Shield: 14%
Leggings: 12%
Gauntlets: 9%
Helmet: 8%

7 base:
Plate: 15%
Shield: 13%
Leggings: 13%
Gauntlets: 10%
Helmet: 9%

This is just so you are aware of what kind of options we're getting into, when we consider basing resistance off of the amount of material used to make armour pieces.
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Birnical
post Feb 12 2009, 12:15 PM
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Your getting all technical hmm this is really turning out to be an fascinating debate.

I don't think it matters if it is 5%/7%/or 10% in that regard because there is going to be consistency in the amount of scales/crystals required to make that item, which would be a rational though.

The most important question is the one that cannot be answered. Is it going to make hunting certain places easier...or harder, which would fall back to my origional request that if such change were to occur, that there is need for immediate followup hot patches/fixes, based on the immediate response on feedback from the players.

I think all the numbers seem fine to me, in either case, it adds up to 60%. Dragon gears are acquired through PVE to further expand your ability to progress in PVE. There generally won't be a complaint from a player hunting hell with 1/5 red dragon items and then submitting a complaint that red dragon items do not provide enough mitigation.
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JonnyH
post Feb 12 2009, 12:53 PM
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Ok, so the next question is this: what about the mid-level resistant armours (ie. Tundrite, Bronze, Brimidian)? Should their resistances just be based off of the upper-level armours, or should they be based on the number of ingots required to forge them?

What if we went with base 7 for upper-level armours: (RD set used for example's sake)

Plate: 16%
Shield: 13%
Leggings: 12%
Gauntlets: 10%
Helmet: 9%

Based on these numbers, Brimidian would be as follows:

Brimidian Chain Coif: 3%
Brimidian Chain Shirt: 5%
Brimidian Chain Gloves: 3%
Brimidian Buckler: 3%
Brimidian Round Shield: 5%
Brimidian Chain Leggings: 4%

Brimidian Plate Helm: 6%
Brimidian Breastplate: 11%
Brimidian Gauntlets: 7%
Brimidian Plate Leggings: 8%

Brimidian Gladiator's Helm: 7%
Brimidian Battle Helm: 7%
Brimidian Rugged Plate: 14%
Brimidian Rugged Shield: 10%
Brimidian Kite Shield: 12%

And subsequently, the Magic pieces that are pertinent to Fire Resistance would be as follows:

Magic Plate vs Fire: 8%
Fire Shield: 7%

These are approximate values, I would need to do some actual calculations - but they would be roughly these. Would that seem appropriate?
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Birnical
post Feb 12 2009, 02:04 PM
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Brimidian Gladiator's Helm: 7%
Brimidian Battle Helm: 7%
Brimidian Rugged Plate: 14%
Brimidian Rugged Shield: 10%
Brimidian Kite Shield: 12%

It is just too high for what the brimidian items are worth compared to RD. The comparison in prices is 500k to 100m. With that I said, I for one, would be able to get away hunting Dread/Anubis with just that on, and the PKers would be disappointed because they were hoping someone would be hunting the hardest place in the game with actual gear that goes with hunting there.

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Lord Nate
post Feb 12 2009, 02:08 PM
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"Report suggestions here"
https://secure.pixelminegames.com/bugreport.aspx
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JonnyH
post Feb 12 2009, 02:42 PM
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Fair enough - I could see those values being a little high. In that paradigm, the Ruggeds were about 5/6 the resistance of the RDs; the Platemail about 2/3; the Chainmail about 1/3. The Magics, then, were about 1/2. That could be changed to the Ruggeds being roughly 3/4; the Plate being roughly 1/2; the Chainmail being about 1/4; the Magics being about 3/8. Would that sound a little more reasonable?
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Shadowsoul
post Feb 12 2009, 05:13 PM
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What you're not taking into account with the brim pieces is though, they're armor rating is very low, as it should be. Hunting hell in a brim set that gives you say 35% total resistance, is still going to be much much more difficult then hunting in an rd set at 60%, largely because not even minions will miss you.
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JonnyH
post Feb 13 2009, 12:28 AM
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Okay, these are the numbers that I'm looking at right now for the Cold resistant armours (minus the robes/books - read: mage gear). I need some feedback on these resistance numbers:

Tundrite Chainmail:
Shirt: 4%
Buckler: 3.5%
Round Shield: 5%
Leggings: 3.25%
Gloves: 3%
Coif: 2.75%

Magic Shield vs Cold: 6.5%

Tundrite Plate:
Breastplate: 8%
Leggings: 7%
Gauntlets: 5%
Helm: 3.5%

Tundrite Rugged:
Breastplate: 12.5%
Shield: 9.5%
Kite Shield: 11%
Gladiator's Helm: 4%
Battle Helm: 4.5%

Frost Armour:
Plate: 17%
Shield: 13.5%
Leggings: 12.5%
Gauntlets: 9.5%
Helmet: 7.5%

With these numbers, the total cold resistance with a Frost set will be the standard 60%; without the Frost set, the maximum available will be 40%. I can also revisit the level requirements, putting the Tundrite pieces in the 20s, rather than 30s, and the Frost set at 30. The point was made that the hunting grounds don't really support high level hunters, and it was well received - when the requirement for Frost gear was level 20, there were many of us who would hunt IDs (not particularly easily, but it could still be done). A level 30 requirement does seem more reasonable, and still makes it something that takes some work to achieve (whereas returning to the 20 requirement of the past seems silly, as 20 is a rather simple level to achieve - in the grand scheme of things).

Give me some feedback, positive or negative. Give me reasons for whatever feedback you give!
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KaaLimaTo
post Feb 13 2009, 05:08 AM
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It's all right as long as forgable gear doesn't give 4/5 or 5/5 of the resistance. 4/6 max. With the new seekers it's too easy to max smelting, forging and mining and get gear that gives almost the same resistance.
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DWC Arbiter
post Feb 13 2009, 03:01 PM
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Ok, I've stickied this temporarily, because the Armor update is happening on Monday. If you don't like what you're seeing in this thread, give feedback - be constructive; keep it civil.
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Birnical
post Feb 13 2009, 03:26 PM
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I don't know, I still think the percentages on the brims/tundrite items are too high...With timing, you can make some risk-free cheesy huntings. Most people already run around with brims/vsf/fireshield in hell for hunts... I just don't think it is fair that I am wearing a redset hunting the same monsters as people wearing brims/vsf/fireshield and we have the same chance for the good drops.
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JonnyH
post Feb 13 2009, 03:35 PM
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Reminder, with this, that the AC fo the Brimidian/Tundrite armours is much lower than that on Frost or Dragon armour. Currently, AC doesn't seem to make a huge difference - but perhaps this is something we need to revisit, as well - though that's beyond the scope of the current work being done.
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